Differences

This shows you the differences between two versions of the page.

--- guides:travelling-between-focuses [14/12/2023 19:38] – Removed Fits and added a link to the Travel Fits page. teb_ozran
+++ guides:travelling-between-focuses [03/01/2024 21:26] (current) – Added Gank Map Pic teb_ozran
@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
 ====== Traveling Between Focuses ======
-Once a focus finishes, there is a wait of between 12 and 36 hours before the next focus spawns.  The new focus is generally in a different constellation, and there can be a large number of jumps required to move to the new focus.
+Once a focus finishes, there is a wait of between 12 and 36 hours before the next focus spawns.  The new focus is generally in a different constellation, possibly many jumps away.
 Traveling in EVE Online, especially with expensive items, is not a simple task. Incursion runners make attractive targets to gankers because of the value of the items we transport.
-There are three primary things you need to move between focuses.
+This guide covers:
-  - Your capsule/pod with your implants.\\
+  - [[guides:travelling-between-focuses?do=#part-1moving-your-pod-with-implants|Part 1: Moving Your Pod with Implants]]\\
-  - Your incursion ships (battleships in general).\\
+  - [[guides:travelling-between-focuses?do=#part-2moving-your-ships|Part 2: Moving Your Ships]]\\
-  - Your expensive modules (faction, deadspace, abyssal, etc).
+  - [[guides:travelling-between-focuses?do=#part-3moving-your-modules|Part 3: Moving Your Modules]]\\
+  - [[guides:travelling-between-focuses?do=#part-4checking-your-route|Part 4: Checking Your Route]]
-There are different ways to move each of these items.
 **Note: There is no such thing as 100% safe in EVE Online.  The best you can do is minimize risk.**
-===== Capsule/Pod/Implants =====
-If you're flying with us, we highly recommend (and sometimes require) that you use implants, not only will these improve your efficiency and speed when running with us, they will also make moving a lot less painful since you can warp so much faster in some implant sets. Take a look at the [[guides:Implants]] page for more information on implants.
+The basics of moving safely:
+  * **Avoid lowsec/nullsec.**  There's simply too many things that can go wrong here.
+  * **Avoid gank pipes.** Certain chokepoints tend to be camped by professional gankers. At all costs, avoid taking Bowheads or blingy incursion ships through these gank pipelines.
+  * **Scout ahead.** If you can, send a second character (in a cheap ship - any faction Shuttle works nicely, though you may want something with a faster warp speed such as a Dramiel, Sunesis, etc) ahead to see who is in the system you're about to jump into and warp through.
+  * **Be an unattractive target.** Make it cost more to gank you than the gankers will get back.
+  * **Use out of game resources** to plan your route and check for activity on the way.
+  * **Make stashes** of ships on either side of major gank pipes.
+===== Part 1: Moving Your Pod with Implants =====
-Although the implants we tend to use are quite expensive, there's very little value to gankers to killing you for your implants (except around Easter, where there's a 50% chance for each of them to drop for a killer to loot them during the Easter Egg Hunt event).
+We highly recommend (and sometimes require) you use implants to fly with us. Take a look at the [[guides:Implants]] page for more information. Although the implants we use are quite expensive, there's very little value to gankers to killing you for your implants (except around Easter, where there's a 50% chance for each of them to drop during the Easter Egg Hunt event).
 If all you're moving is your pod, move in a cheap quick aligning ship (a Shuttle is generally fine), do **NOT** fly through lowsec/nullsec, and do not autopilot.
@@ Line 25: / Line 32: @@
 You can combine moving your pod with moving either your primary incursion running ships and/or your expensive modules.  When doing this, follow the same rules you would follow for the incursion ship or modules.
-===== The Basics of Moving Safely =====
+===== Part 2: Moving Your Ships =====
-The basics of moving safely can be summed up as follows:
+The key to moving your incursion ships safely is to strip out all of the expensive modules (except rigs) and either:
-  * Avoid lowsec/nullsec.  There's simply too many things that can go wrong here.
+   - **Travel fit** the hull with cheap (T2) tank modules and fly it to the new focus or\\
-  * Scout ahead. If you can, send a second character (in a cheap ship - any faction Shuttle works nicely, though you may want something with a faster warp speed such as a Dramiel, Sunesis, etc) ahead to see who is in the system you're about to jump into and warp through.
+   - Use a **Bowhead** to move your empty ship hulls.
-  * Be an unattractive target.
-  * Use out of game resources to plan your route and check for activity on the way.
-Use [[https://eve-gatecheck.space/eve/|the EVE Gatecamp Check]].\\ Put in your starting system and your destination, choose "Prefer Secure" and then press Go.
+Do **NOT** carry expensive modules in your incursion ship when travelling between focuses. Do **NOT** put them in the cargo hold.
-Then look at [[https://evemaps.dotlan.net/|Dotlan]] as well, looking for systems on your route with a high number of deaths in recent times. Pay particular attention to systems that are difficult to avoid, and systems that are 0.5 -0.6 security status. Look for any systems with any numbers in the Kills column (kills in the last hour).
+==== Travel Fit ====
-If you think something looks suspicious, look at it closer. Click on the system name in Dotlan and go to the "Kills" tab which is powered by zKillboard. Look for freighters or other expensive ships dying, if even one has died recently it may indicate an active gank fleet.
+If you plan to fly your incursion battleship between focuses, a good travel fit can make you an unattractive target. Strip off all your expensive incursion modules and fit the ship with as many T2 tank modules as you can squeeze on: shield, armor, and hull. Move your expensive incursion modules **separately**, never in the cargo hold. Example travel fits can be found here: [[guides:Travel-Fits|Travel Fits]].
-You may be able to get intel from incursion chat channels about active ganking fleets during moving periods. Please do **NOT** advertise where or when you are moving your assets, as these channels are also monitored by gankers, and you **WILL** be providing free intel to potential hostiles.
+Use the [[https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Cloak_trick|MWD Cloak Trick]] if you jump through a gate and find yourself on grid with gankers (if you have a cloak on your travel fit).
-Be an unattractive target - use a tanky travel fit.  The idea here is simply to be worth less as a kill mail than the cost to kill you.  Do **NOT** carry expensive modules on your incursion ship when travelling between focuses.\\   For all of our incursion ships, a travel fit involves removing expensive modules and replacing them with cheaper options - T2 armor plates, T2 damage control units, etc.\\
+==== Bowhead ====
-Use the [[https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Cloak_trick|MWD Cloak Trick]] if you jump through a gate and find yourself on grid with gankers (provided you have a cloak on your travel fit).
+If you have multiple ships to move, using a Bowhead might be worthwhile. Bowheads are special ships that can carry fitted ships in their holds. A Bowhead can carry up to 4 battleships at a time, with good skills (3 without). Be aware, however, that Bowheads have recently become prime gank targets. Ship scanning a Bowhead only shows what hulls are inside, not how they are fitted. Recently people have been moving their ships in Bowheads with the expensive modules **still fitted**, rewarding successful Bowhead ganks with billions worth of fitted ships.
-=== Move Bling Separately ===
+Minimize your risk of loss by stripping all modules (except rigs) from your ships before moving the ships in your Bowhead. Move the modules separately (see below).
-Move your expensive modules ("bling") in a "taxi," a small fast-align ship. You want something with a small sig radius, extremely low align time and enough cargo space to carry your expensive modules. Tank is largely irrelevant on a taxi, the idea is to avoid being caught. If you get tackled, it's unlikely that you'll last long enough to avoid dying irrespective of the security status of the system you're in. The idea is avoid getting caught in the first place. Sub-1 second align time is ideal, sub-2 seconds is marginal. See below for more details and fit suggestions.
+Before transitioning to using a Bowhead to move your hulls around you should make stashes so that you can avoid the main gank pipes (Uedama and Odin/Ohide being the worst two). The best use of a Bowhead is to move your ship hulls from your nearby stash to the focus (and back after the focus ends).
-=== Travel Fit Your Battleship ===
+**A Note on Abyssal DCU's**
+Some pilots will use an Abyssal Damage Control Unit on their Bowhead. There are benefits to doing this, namely it makes it very difficult for ganking entities to determine the amount of ships required to kill you (due to not knowing the resist profile of the module). The downside is that it can make you a more attractive target, and gankers may just use an overkill amount of ships to make sure the job gets done no matter what.
-Once you've stripped out the blingy modules, you need to move your battleship hull(s) separately, or together in a Bowhead. If piloting your battleship, put as much tank on it as possible: shield, armor, and hull. Use inexpensive T2 modules. Example travel fits can be found below.
+===== Part 3: Moving Your Modules =====
-=== Triglavian and Edencom Systems ===
+There are several ways to move your expensive incursion modules safely:
-As you travel you will encounter both Triglavian (Trig) and Edencom systems.  To travel through these systems without being attacked by these NPCs, you will need positive standings with both.  Edencom by default will not attack you unless you reduced your standings with them.  Trigs will attack by default.  You can increase standings with both groups at the same time by going into [[https://explorers-sanctum.com/how-to-fix-triglavian-standings/|Pochven and killing a rogue drone or sleeper rat]].  That will give a slight increase to standings with both. Assuming your character has not engaged in Trig/Edencom content previously, this will be enough to be friendly to both, allowing you to freely move through their systems without them attacking you on the gates.
+   - **Taxi** - a small fast-align ship\\
+   - **Blockade Runner** - a cloaky hauler\\
+   - **Courier** - let someone else handle it
-=== Insurgency Systems ===
+==== Taxi ====
-The Havoc expansion (November 2023) introduced a new mechanism that allows certain highsec systems to be "corrupted" to the point where they behave like lowsec, and therefore would be unsafe to travel through. Unfortunately, so far there is no way to auto-avoid these systems.  A highsec system that has corruption level 5 is effectively lowsec and there's no Concord response.  There should be a warning if you try and enter a level 5 corrupted system, and it should also show up on your route as bright red. To find out what corrupted systems there are, open the Agency in game, then go to Encounters and select Pirate Insurgencies. Once there you can select “Insurgency Systems” towards the lower right of the window to see affected systems. Make note of any that are high sec and plan on avoiding them if possible while moving.
+"Taxi" is a nickname for a ship designed to safely move relatively small volumes of expensive modules. You want something with a small signature radius, extremely low align time and enough cargo space to carry your expensive modules. Tank is largely irrelevant on a taxi, the idea is to avoid being caught. You need an extremely fast align time for this to work. Sub-1 second align time is ideal, sub-2 seconds is marginal.
-==== Scouting ====
+=== Sub one second align taxi ===
-If you just have 1 incursion ship to move, the simplest way to move is travel-fit it, and have your bling in a separate, ideally sub-1 second align, taxi. With 2 omega accounts you can self-scout: have one character enter a system ahead of the other to check that it's clear to enter. If a system looks bad, you can dock up and wait for a better opportunity to slip through. Sometimes if gankers are in a system you can slip through right after they've ganked someone else and are on their cooldown timers (red flashy).
+The safest option is to have a ship that can enter warp in < 1s - this is (effectively) uncatchable in highsec (unless you sit idle on a gate and your post-jump invulnerability times out - nothing will save you then). Only 2 ships can achieve this: the Hecate and the Jackdaw. The Hecate requires a limited-edition booster, while the Jackdaw requires special travel implants. See [[guides:Travel-Fits|Travel Fits]] for fitting information.
+Note that you will need to keep the Hecate (or Jackdaw) in "propulsion" mode to be able to enter warp in < 1s - if you change to defensive mode to land on a gate, make sure you change back to propulsion mode first before you warp away from the next gate!
-=== Scouting With One Omega Account ===
+Be aware that the cargo holds for these ships are quite small. Once you have more than a ship or two's worth of modules to move, you may find yourself outgrowing their limited cargo space.
-If you only have a single Omega account or are still Alpha, you can't have a second character on to scout yourself. In this case, you have 2 options: ask someone to scout for you, or self-scout using "delayed scouting," a slightly less reliable way to scout for yourself.
-Delayed scouting:
+=== Sub two second align taxi ===
-  - Log in your scout character, enter the next system with it, dock up and log off.
-  - Log in the character flying the hull and move to that system, dock up and log off.
-  - Log in the taxi alt carrying the bling and move the taxi to that system, dock up and log off.
-  - Rinse and repeat until you are to the new focus.
-===== Incursion Ship Travel Fits =====
+If you cannot afford a <1s align ship, we recommend that you use a courier service (see the section below on Public Hauling Services) to move your items, with appropriate collateral on the contract to protect your items.  If your align is greater than 1 second, you CAN be caught - here's a loss mail for a 1.87s align Sunesis with ~3B isk of stuff lost:
-When moving your ships and modules please use appropriate fits, these can be found at: [[guides:Travel-Fits|Travel Fits]].  Additional advice on how to use them is found below.
+https://zkillboard.com/kill/88587483/
-==== Battleships ====
+A single stealth bomber can do over 5,000hp of damage in a single hit, and a single T2 artillery Tornado has an alpha strike of over 10,000hp from over 100km from its target.  Cloaks don't help enough to de-risk this sort of thing sufficiently.
-For all battleship travel fits - The cloak and MWD are so you can use the cloak/MWD trick to get into warp with less time vulnerable on the gate.
+==== Blockade Runner ====
-=== Cloak MWD Trick ===
+A correctly flown Blockade Runner can be hard to catch (please do NOT make the mistake of thinking it's impossible - a well/badly placed ship or container or any item in space can REALLY ruin your day), the important things you need to do to fly it correctly:
-To do the Cloak MWD Trick align (not jump) on the next gate, as the ship starts to align click your improved cloaking device then immediately hit your MWD and red cycle the MWD.  This will cause the MWD to cycle one time, due to the speed penalty of the cloaking device if you cancel the cloak roughly 1-2 sec before your MWD finishes it's cycle you will instantly go into warp when the MWD cycles off.
-===== Public Hauling Services =====
+  * When warping gate-to-gate:
+    - Click the jump button on the next gate to initiate warp
+    - As soon as you see your capacitor level drop indicating initiation of the warp, click your cloak
+  * When undocking from a busy, camped system (e.g. any trade hub), you should have an insta-undock bookmark which you use immediately and cloak as soon as it catapults you forward. Otherwise you will be vulnerable and unable to cloak for several seconds in which a gambler playing the "Blockade Runner Lottery" can gank you under the assumption that most Blockade Runner pilots are carrying something expensive.
-A more risk-free approach is to use a hauling service such as [[https://www.pushx.net/|PushX]] or [[https://red-frog.org/|Red Frog]] (or one of their subsidiary's). Being able to set a collateral value on your items all but eliminates the risk of hauling it yourself, however this will cost you in both ISK and time, as these contracts can take 1-5 days to complete, as well as a not-insignificant service cost. Restrictions will also apply on the value of contracts these services will accept, so you may find yourself needing to make multiple hauling contracts.
+You should, if possible, fit a Large Shield Extender (Compact Meta4 usually) to your BR along with some passive shield amplifiers. These will help prevent you getting instablapped by a Tornado/Talos on an undock.
+For your lows, simply fit sufficient Nanos to reduce your align time to a reasonable level. For rigs, Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizers are excellent for those super fast warps.
+==== Public Hauling Services ====
-===== Other Travel Fits =====
+A more risk-free approach is to use a hauling service such as [[https://www.pushx.net/|PushX]] or [[https://red-frog.org/|Red Frog]] (or one of their subsidiary's). Being able to set a collateral value on your items all but eliminates the risk of hauling it yourself, however this will cost you in both ISK and time, as these contracts can take 1-5 days to complete, as well as a not-insignificant service cost. Restrictions will also apply on the value of contracts these services will accept, so you may find yourself needing to make multiple hauling contracts.
-Whilst it's important to move your ships between focuses, as your ship fits become more valuable, moving the "shiny" bits becomes critical too.
+===== Part 4: Checking Your Route =====
-*NEVER* move a ship with its incursions fit between focuses, even in highsec.  Some of the modules we use are very expensive, and will make your ship a large and juicy target for gankers.
+To move safely:
-==== Blockade Runner ====
+   - Check for Edencom and Triglavian systems on your route (if you have poor standings with either)
+   - Check for Insurgency Corruption on your route
+   - Check for ganking activity
+   - Scout ahead
-A correctly flown Blockade Runner can be hard to catch (please do NOT make the mistake of thinking it's impossible - a well/badly placed ship or container or any item in space can REALLY ruin your day), the important things you need to do to fly it correctly:
-  * When warping gate-to-gate:
+==== Triglavian and Edencom Systems ====
-    - Click the jump button on the next gate to initiate warp
-    - As soon as you see your capacitor level drop indicating initiation of the warp, click your cloak
-  * When undocking from a busy, camped system (e.g. any trade hub), you should have an insta-undock bookmark which you use immediately and cloak as soon as it catapults you forward. Otherwise you will be vulnerable and unable to cloak for several seconds in which a gambler playing the "Blockade Runner Lottery" can gank you under the assumption that most Blockade Runner pilots are carrying something expensive.
-You should, if possible, fit a Large Shield Extender (Compact Meta4 usually) to your BR along with some passive shield amplifiers. These will help prevent you getting instablapped by a Tornado/Talos on an undock.
+As you travel you will encounter both Triglavian (Trig) and Edencom systems.  To travel through these systems without being attacked by these NPCs, you will need positive standings with both.  Edencom by default will not attack you unless you've reduced your standings with them.  Trigs will attack by default.  You can increase standings with both groups at the same time by going into [[https://explorers-sanctum.com/how-to-fix-triglavian-standings/|Pochven and killing a rogue drone or sleeper rat]].  That will give a slight increase to standings with both. Assuming your character has not engaged in Trig/Edencom content previously, this will be enough to be friendly to both, allowing you to freely move through their systems without them attacking you on the gates.
-For your lows, simply fit sufficient Nanos to reduce your align time to a reasonable level. For rigs, Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizers are excellent for those super fast warps.
+==== Insurgency Systems ====
-==== Taxi ====
+The Havoc expansion (November 2023) introduced a new mechanism that allows certain highsec systems to be "corrupted" to the point where they behave like lowsec, and therefore would be unsafe to travel through. Unfortunately, so far there is no way to auto-avoid these systems.  A highsec system that has corruption level 5 is effectively lowsec and there's no Concord response.  There should be a warning if you try and enter a level 5 corrupted system, and it should also show up on your route as a red triangle. To find out what corrupted systems there are, open the Agency in game, then go to Encounters and select Pirate Insurgencies. Once there you can select “Insurgency Systems” towards the lower right of the window to see affected systems. Make note of any that are high sec and plan on avoiding them if possible while moving.
-"Taxi" is a nickname for a ship designed to safely move relatively small volumes of expensive modules across space in as safe a manner as possible.
+==== Ganking Activity ====
-**Please Note:** We do NOT recommend traversing lowsec or nullsec systems with your incursion ships or modules.  There are additional tools that attackers get in lowsec and nullsec (free use of smart-bombs in lowsec and nullsec, warp disruption bubbles in nullsec, just to name two) that can entirely negate your ability to safely warp away with your cargo intact.
+{{ :guides:gank_map.png?400|}}
-In general, if gankers get a lock on your ship, they can put enough firepower into it to destroy it and loot the wreck before Concord ships arrive.  So, really, what you want to do is avoid being locked to start with.  Conventional wisdom has a few suggestions around this:
+Set your route and look to see if you're going through any of the usual gank pipelines. Systems like Uedama, Gheth, Deltole, Ohide, Odin, and others can often be camped by gankers. (Deltole can be avoided but the others are unavoidable if you're staying in highsec.) Tune into the Twitch stream "Uedama Scout" for a live stream of Local in Uedama and several other ganking highsec systems.
-  * Use a Scout.  This is always advisable, but knowing who's ahead of you is not fool-proof.  Whilst if there's obvious ganking activity in a system you'll likely see it, "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" -  just because you can't see gankers around doesn't mean they're not there.
+To check your route for ganking activity, use [[https://eve-gatecheck.space/eve/|EVE Gatecamp Check]]. Put in your starting system and your destination, choose "Prefer Secure" and then click "Check!".
-  * Use a small ship (or a ship with a small signature radius).  The smaller your signature radius, the harder you are to lock up (more specifically, the longer it takes to lock you up).
-  * Use a cloak.  Once cloaked you cannot be targeted until you're decloaked.  If you're using a T1/T2 or meta/faction cloak, you cannot warp when cloaked, and your sub-warp speed (the speed your ship can move when not in warp) is significantly slower than normal (noting you also cannot cloak and activate a microwarp drive or afterburner to increase your speed, though you can potentially use the "[[https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Cloak_trick|MWD Cloak Trick]]").
-  * Get into warp quicker than someone can lock you.  In highsec, this is truly the only way to avoid being caught (at least directly, it IS possible for gankers to use smartbombs in highsec, but it's low accuracy and easily avoided if you're careful and do things like not warping gate to gate to disrupt not only the timing of your warp but also the direction from which you land on the destination gate).
-A combination of all these methods can also be helpful, because if one of the methods isn't 100% successful in keeping you safe, the others may be, and you'll warp off safely.
+Then look at [[https://evemaps.dotlan.net/|Dotlan]] as well, looking for systems on your route with a high number of deaths in recent times. Pay particular attention to systems that are difficult to avoid, and systems that are 0.5 - 0.6 security status. Look for any systems with any numbers in the Kills column (kills in the last hour).
-=== Sub one second align taxi ===
+If you think something looks suspicious, look at it closer. Click on the system name in Dotlan and go to the "Kills" tab which is powered by zKillboard. Look for freighters or other expensive ships dying, if even one has died recently it may indicate an active gank fleet.
-The safest option is to have a ship that can enter warp in < 1s - this is (effectively) uncatchable in highsec (unless you sit idle on a gate and your post-jump invulnerability times out - nothing will save you then).
+You may be able to get intel from incursion chat channels about active ganking fleets during moving periods. Please do **NOT** advertise where or when you are moving your assets, as these channels are also monitored by gankers, and you **WILL** be providing free intel to potential hostiles.
-Note that you will also need to keep the Hecate (or Jackdaw) in "propulsion" mode to be able to enter warp in < 1s - if you change to defensive mode to land on a gate, make sure you change back to propulsion mode first before you warp away from the next gate!
-=== Sub two second align taxi ===
-If you cannot afford a <1s align ship, we recommend that you use a courier service (see the section below on Public Hauling Services) to move your items, with appropriate collateral on the contract to protect your items.  If your align is greater than 1 second, you CAN be caught - here's a loss mail for a 1.87s align Sunesis with ~3B isk of stuff lost:
+==== Scout Ahead ====
-https://zkillboard.com/kill/88587483/
+With 2 omega accounts you can scout ahead for yourself: have your scout character enter a system ahead of the character in the valuable ship, to check that it's clear to enter. If a system looks bad, you can dock up and wait for a better opportunity to slip through. Sometimes if gankers are in a system you can slip through right after they've ganked someone else and are on their cooldown timers (red flashy). Set known gankers to -10 standings on your scout character so you will immediately see in Local if there are gankers in system.
-A single stealth bomber can do over 5,000hp of damage in a single hit, and a single T2 artillery Tornado has an alpha strike of over 10,000hp from over 100km from its target.  Cloaks don't help enough to de-risk this sort of thing sufficiently.
-==== Bowhead ====
+=== Scouting With One Omega Account ===
-Welcome to the world of freighter travel. It's a dangerous world. You don't have a cloak and if anyone decides they really want to gank you, they probably can!
+If you only have a single Omega account or are still Alpha, you can't have a second character on to scout yourself. In this case, you have 2 options: ask someone to scout for you, or self-scout using "delayed scouting," a slightly less reliable way to scout for yourself.
+Delayed scouting:
+  - Log in your scout character, jump it into the next system, check for gankers, dock up and log off.
+  - If it seems safe, log in the character flying the hull and jump to that system, dock up and log off.
+  - Log in the taxi alt carrying the bling and jump to that system, dock up and log off.
+  - Rinse and repeat until you are in the new focus.
-**__You should be carrying the assembled rigged hulls and nothing else in your Bowhead, all the mods should be going separately via Blockade Runner/Taxi/etc.__**
-Before transitioning to using a Bowhead to move your hulls around you should make stashes so that you can avoid the main gank pipes (Udeama and Odin/Ohide being the worst two)  The nature of a Bowhead is that a ganker scanning the ship can see what hulls you have but not how they are fit.  That has lead to them killing Bowheads going through the pipe to find out if they have expensive modules on the hulls.
-==== A Note on Abyssal DCU's ====
-Some pilots will use an Abyssal DCU on their Bowhead. There are benefits to doing this, namely it makes it very difficult for ganking entities to determine the amount of ships required to kill you (due to not knowing the resist profile of the module). The downside is that it can make you a more attractive target, and gankers may just use an overkill amount of ships to make sure the job gets done no matter what.